A trip through the fantasy worlds I enjoy

Beta 4 

Beta 4 focuses on cities.  But that really means it focuses on the games pace.  Production, economy and research come from your cities.  When we change them we change the game.  First let's talk about a few of the design issues we have been wrestling with:

1.            Lack of city specialization.  Materials and Food are okay, but in general you want to build the same things in every city, or at least the player's preference outweighs the strategic benefit (so it feels like you just want to do the same thing everywhere).

2.            We need more improvements.  We want to double the amount a given city may have.  We want more choices, we want there to be a bigger difference between a city that focuses on infrastructure and one that produces troops.  I want a player focusing on infrastructure to never be able to run out of things to build.  And I want to do it without:

a.            Making improvements take forever to build.

b.            Making cities even larger than they already are (in fact I want to shrink cities).

3.            Basing the economy, research and production directly on population is painful/impossible when cities can grow from 1 from 600 population.  Whatever bonus we give for those resources on a 10 population city become 60 times as high on a 600 population city.  Lesson 1: To control game pace, control your ranges.

4.            City enchantments are a tightrope walk.  To good and you have to place them on every city, it becomes busywork.  Not good enough and you never use them.

 

I wish fixing it was a simple thing, but we needed a few pieces to make it all work.

 

Step 1: Starbases?

Outposts can be upgraded to give bonuses to anything in their Zone of Control.  They can boost allied units attack, reduce the attack of enemies, modify movement costs, scare away monsters, provide bonuses to the attached city, etc.  They are not destroyed when an enemy moves onto them, instead they are flipped to that enemies control and represent your control over the land itself (monsters still destroy outposts, I highly recommend you upgrade them with Wardens to keep the monsters at bay).

Outposts have a limited distance they can be built (or summoned) from each other, so you can't pepper the field with them.  But their ZoC's can intersect (with the right upgrades) and their bonuses are cumulative, allowing you to build strong defenses if you desire.

 

Step 2: Much like a bad Star Trek episode, it's all about the Queue

The production queue is a precious resource.  Everything in Beta4 builds faster, but there is a lot more to build.  As with Beta3 City Improvements and Units train in the queue, but Wild Improvements and Outpost upgrades go into the queue as well.  You can drag items around in your queue if you want to reorder them (and it remembers how much production you had on items you may move back in line).

The biggest change in Beta4 is that even though production is much faster, there are always things you want to build.  You can play as Pariden and drop outposts early on, but you will be making a hard choice to start claiming those resources vs making units or improvements in your cities.

Multiple cities are always good.  If you can defend them and you have the land to claim it's always a good option just because it gives you more queues.  The minimum distance between cities has been reduced in Beta4 to support more cities, closer together.

 

Step 3: Improvement Upgrades

In Beta4 improvements can upgrade.  Your Cleric upgrades to a Shrine which upgrades to a Sacrificial Altar (for Empire players).  Since the old improvement is replaced by the new one, we get a few benefits:

1.            City size stays relatively contained.  We added 40 new improvements and cities are about half the side they are in Beta 3.

2.            Cities look more advanced as they upgrade to higher tier buildings.  A cleric is a modest building, the Shrine is more pronounced, the artists can go all out on what the Sacrificial Altar looks like.  Upgraded buildings don't get lost in the jumble of the same buildings the rest of your cities have, they look more unique and specific to their purpose.

3.            You can't get to the higher tier buildings of particular types unless you have built the earlier versions.  You can't build the Treasury Vault unless you have gone through the economy boosting improvements on the way.  So you have to decide, do you want to build a Study, then School, then College and University?  If you do you won't be getting access to the best economy improvements without spending the time to go through the base one and their upgrades.  You are rewarded for specializing your cities and your cities build lists become very unique from each other.  Build lists also don’t become huge since you only see the highest tier you have access to (you only see the Pier, not the Dock and Harbor it upgrades to).

4.            Faction achievements and World Achievements are at the end of upgrade chains.  You can't build the Ironworks just because you unlocked the tech for it, and you can't build it in every city.  It will only show in a city that has specialized in what it does.

5.            Resource improvements upgrade too.  The first shard shrine only produces 1 mana per turn.  With the correct techs you can upgrade to ones that produce more mana.  The same goes for Crystal and Iron mines.  If you have enough iron mines to train your units maybe you don’t need to tech up the side of the tree to unlock these improvements.  But if you do want to have your iron come in faster, the research options are there for it.  This fixes a big issue for us by allowing us to control the pace of mana and resources as the game goes on, we can trickle it in in the beginning, then ramp it up as the player gets access to more expensive units and more costly spells.

 

Step 4: City Specialization

All cities start as villages.  When the city gets to city level 2 you pick a specialization for that city.  It can be either be a Fort, a Conclave or a Town.

 

Fort- Units trained in forts start at a level higher.  Forts are the only cities that can build walls as well as having access to improvements that improve defenders and improve trained units.

Conclave- Conclaves generate more research than other city types and have access to special magic and research improvements.  They gain additional bonuses from Essence (more about that later).

Town- Towns are the heart of your empire and are the source of your food, growth and money.  They also have a larger ZoC than other city types.  Towns have access to a series of improvements that improve the food production for all cities in your empire and they are cumulative with each other.  So Forts and Conclaves will never be able to reach the highest city levels on their own, they will need towns to support them.

 

The improvements for each city type are generally in that tech tree (Fort=Military, Town=Civilization, Conclave=Magic).  So players that are doing alot of teching in one area will find that they can get more advanced improvements for that sort of city.  If you have researched 90% of your magic tree and 0% of your Military tree you will have more high tier conclave improvements available than you have Fort improvements (in fact you will only have 1st tier Fort improvements available).

Choosing what sort of city you have opens up lots of new improvements to that city as well as determining what sorts of improvements the city can unlock at city level 3, 4 and 5.  The real magic comes in the intersection of the upgradeable improvement chains (which keep players from building everything everywhere) and the city types (which modify the effect of other improvements).  Maybe you want a food boosting town or a fort that creates super soldiers.  Or maybe you want studies in every city because you like studies (even if they are more productive in Conclave cities).

Note that studies are available everywhere.  Our point isn't to lock these city types down.  You can get research and money from non-town cities.  You can train units in Conclave cities.  The point is to open up new ways each type can specialize.

 

Step 5: The Economy

I love the idea of all the economics inputs coming from the population.  At one point I had a design where there were citizen types, unrest controlled how many were rebels, craftsmen produced special things.  It was a beautiful, intricate, stupid design.  Lesson number 2: If it's fun to design, it probably isn't fun to play.

Instead of getting money, research and production from the population, they now come from the city level.  A village (city level 1) produces 1 research a turn, a level 5 city produces 16 research per turn.  Of course these are modified by improvements, enchantments, etc.  But that is the extent of our range.

Because of that change tech costs drop to more normalized values.  A player with a large population isn't researching at 20x the rate of a player with a normal population.  He may be going twice as quickly.

Improvement costs can normalize since we know the ranges for a large production based city.  And they are close enough that they stay reasonable for a production focused city without being laughable for a moderate city.

Gold (*cough*, I mean Gildar) values were normalized since we control the ranges, meaning item costs in shops can come down.  Sell prices stay the same but now that money means more.  A gildar per turn means something to small and large empires alike because to don’t through a growth curve from starving for money to drowning in it.

 

Step 6: Essence

The final step is the addition of a new tile yield, Essence.  Essence appears much like Grain and Materials and is more prevelant around mana shards.  Only about half of the city locations have any essence nearby, and only about half of those have spots with 2 Essence.  3 Essence tiles are extremely rare.

There are chains of improvements that require essence before they become available.  The Cleric/Shrine/Sacrificial Altar chain I mentioned above is only available in cities with Essence.  Conclaves have access to Alchemy Labs and other improvements that give bonuses based on the amount of Essence in that city.  The Guardian Idol improvement requires Essence and is 1 per faction (it starts as a monument, upgraded to a Guardian Statue and then to a Guardian Idol), it is a powerful city defender that can cast any spell your sovereign can cast.

There are two improvements that can increase the amount of Essence in a city.  One is a level up option in Conclave cities.  The other is only available to Pariden.

The biggest advantage of Essence is that a cities Essence determines how many enchantments it can have.  City enchantments no longer have a maintenance cost and there are more of them and they are more powerful than before.  If you found a city on a place with essence the first thing you should do is get some enchantments on it.  Inspiration and Enchanted Hammers are good early ones that exist in Beta 3 (though in Beta4 the amount of their bonus depends on the amount of essence in the city).  Additional City Enchantments like Set in Stone (+100% production but no research), Blood Sigil (Withers all attackers, Berserks all Defenders) and Sovereign's Call (+1 Growth per Essence) allow you an additional decision on how to specialize your cities.  Trust in Glyph of Life to protect your Conclave from attackers, use Pit of Madness to speed the research in your Town.

Essence effectively becomes the most flexible tile yield, doing nothing on its own, but allowing you to reach in and play with the cities configuration.  Maybe you want it focused on gold and growth but dispel those enchantments and switch it into battle mode when enemies come near (enchantment maintenance is gone, but these spells still cost mana to cast so "respecting" your city isn't something you should do lightly).

 

Step 7: Balance

I find myself carefully considering the build options in my cities.  That doesn't mean it will be perfect.  I'm very curious to hear from all of you on what enchantments you use most and which you don't use at all.  Do you focus just on one sort of city type or play with a mix?  Do you chase down improvement chains to the end, or do you pick a variety of improvements in your cities?

In a few weeks you will have a chance to play and I'm excited to get your thoughts.  Until then we have work to do, mostly in making sure all the information is being displayed in an easy to understand way, and generally polishing the entire game to smooth the edges.

 


Comments (Page 6)
14 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7 8  Last
on Jul 01, 2012

Building fort/military cities could become a bit odd under this new system.

On one hand you desire a maxxed out fort city for the best troops but every legion you create becomes a source of food consumption and an advancement detractor. So the best strategy is to let the military cities sit there and vegetate until level 5.  It wasn't such a problem before because you could access almost any improvement short of a few specials awarded on level up.

 

Looking forward to beta 4.

Satrhan
What's the point of the 'crazy stuff' you find if all you do is sell it? You could just give heaps of gildar as a reward instead.

Imo the selling of artifacts to the shop needs to go. It's hard to balance the sale price without upsetting the whole economy. And its a complete no-brainer; if I can't use it, I sell it to the shop, where it just disappears. It would be a lot more fun if items became tradable through diplomacy. You could sell items to other players, but have the risk of it being used against you. Or you could go to war over some powerful artifact, and only agree to peace if it is handed over to you.
Another option would be to have everything that is sold in the shop available for purchase by all other players. That would make the shopkeepers truly evil

I suggested an auction house system early on.  That included selling special quest hero contracts.

on Jul 01, 2012

seanw3
The AI gets incremental improvements all the while. I would guess that the final AI work will be done in beta 5 and 6.

The frog says he is pushing for a beta 5 and 6, but we might be finished at the end of beta 4. Only time will tell. AI can make or break a game like this (broke Warlock for me).

on Jul 01, 2012

Derek makes all the decision on Beta cycle I think. There is no reason he would end things at Beta 4 since it won't cover any of the end of development polish he has mentioned in previous posts. This game has to be perfected by release because most of the money will come from the expansion. As a consumer I am in a very contentable position. 

on Jul 01, 2012

Sounds interesting, been waiting forever for another update, so was great to finally see one.  As least on paper everything sounds pretty good to me, solving the balance and samey-ness issues.  Essence especially seems like a good idea, since it might make for some really interesting combos later on or the ability for some much more interesting enchants.  I do wonder how city curses are going to work, if there is any limit to those as well, or if they take up an essence slot, or what.

I hope that prestige effects are more emphasized in Beta 4.  I think with more interesting outposts the contrasts of big cities vs lots of cities could be more compelling.

Anyways, glad to hear more on the FE front once again!

on Jul 01, 2012

Instead of getting money, research and production from the population, they now come from the city level.  A village (city level 1) produces 1 research a turn, a level 5 city produces 16 research per turn.

Cruxador
So once your city gets to level 5, any further growth is useless?

Perhaps once a city reaches it's maximum population (regardless of it being level 5) it gets removed from the prestige calculations. This would provide an alternative strategy to building up your one or two cities to max before expanding, as apposed to plopping down every city as fast as possible running pubs.

on Jul 01, 2012

Basing the economy, research and production directly on population is painful/impossible when cities can grow from 1 from 600 population.  Whatever bonus we give for those resources on a 10 population city become 60 times as high on a 600 population city.

Why not start at 10 then instead of one? Seriously, most other games with income per person do not work through such massive orders of magnitude as this one. That's you're problem. Try it one day: start towns at 10 population and halve the income per head. You'll be less limited in the early game and kill the gold glut in the late game.

There's a very good reason for production per head: it means that, no matter what, so long as my population is growing I will always have more to play with tomorrow than I do today. If you instead fix income to city levels, it's much more possible for me to reach a catch 22 situation where i can't get to the next level and increase my income, because i don't have enough income to afford that building i need, and that balance never changes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm generally a big fan of basing things on level. I argued long and ahrd to ditch the specialist system and just link buildings to level. But you can't link EVERYTHING to level. Especially when there's so few of them and they're often very far between.

on Jul 01, 2012

Population starts higher than 10.

on Jul 01, 2012

Derek, I just read your post and I'm loving your ideas, I knew you and your colleagues would come up with the goods. I'm super keen to try out the next beta and see how these play out.

To answer your question about city enchantments and buffs, I do these things:

1) play meditation on all smaller settlements

2) play inspiration on any half decent settlement

3) I have a focused troop training city buffed with all the aura of vitality type spells

4) My core cities get the enchanted hammers and obsession buffs

5) I use gentle rain on cities that have reached their growth limits

6) I like the fire moat enchantment alot but I've actually never been forced into a position where I needed to use it

7) I use bless city on the core cities but I never bother with curse city

8) I never bother with any of the massively expensive buffs for cities or champions (you know the 500 mana, get some minor buff) type spells - I consider them overcosted and would never use them even if I was drowning in mana - similarly the raise and lower land spells have become too expensive to warrant using too

So yeah I use loads of the enchantments really. Having essence capping the number of enchanments on cities is an excellent idea BTW

on Jul 01, 2012

Gentle Rain should probably switch to Food per Grain so it is easier to calculate yields.

on Jul 01, 2012

I know I'm a bit late reading Derek's post but I must say it is great news. We'll have to see how the actual implementation works but in theory Derek is fixing virtually all of the problems I had with FE. This could truly be awesome.

I am a little unsure what sort of trade-offs there are to building more cities. Needing to defend them and getting slightly less growth per city due to prestige help mitigate the effects but don't really change that expanding is crucial. Not that I want to stop expansion, empire building is fun, and nor would I want a crap mechanism like Civ 5 happiness. However there could be room for a Civ 4 type short term economic cost to expansion. The key to Civ 4's system is that given enough time the economic benefits of new cities will outweigh the cost but that short term cost makes one think carefully otherwise they risk tanking their economy and taking too long to dig themselves out again.

Of course they might not want this sort of mechanism in FE and based on Derek's post I'm feeling pretty confident that they know what they are doing...

on Jul 02, 2012

Thanks for the update notes! Looking forward to trying it out. 

 

Interesting that there can be more cities now, Would it be possible to put in some way to increase city spacing based on map size?  maybe a slider   so you could adjust the city spacing for different map sizes?

 

 

 

on Jul 02, 2012

Derek Paxton


I don't like maintenance.  [...] Instead I want to make the queue so central that you are making hard decisions about what to put it in.  There are lots of things you would love to do, and that is your constraint,

I really, really hope you will succeed in this. I have yet to see a TBS in which any queue has been able to have this power. I believe this will be your hardest task. If you succeed: hat's off, you will have made a truly wonderful breakthrough and mastered a very difficult game mechanic which will surely make for a great game. I am, however, apprehensive, since (again) I have never seen this done before, and you will need to have wonderful options much more intruiging than any a Civilizations franchise has ever shown to light, and keep these options halfway balanced from early game through end game. How I wish you to succeed here, if even at the cost of everything else! This would truly be an answer to the greatest constraint: constant polyvalent player choices!

on Jul 02, 2012


Until then we have work to do, mostly in making sure all the information is being displayed in an easy to understand way, and generally polishing the entire game to smooth the edges.

All the other stuff was not unexpected... so my favorite part of Beta 4 is quoted above.

on Jul 02, 2012

Wow, sounds awesome! Can't wait

on Jul 02, 2012

onomastikon
Quoting Derek Paxton, reply 36

I don't like maintenance.  [...] Instead I want to make the queue so central that you are making hard decisions about what to put it in.  There are lots of things you would love to do, and that is your constraint,

I really, really hope you will succeed in this. I have yet to see a TBS in which any queue has been able to have this power. I believe this will be your hardest task. If you succeed: hat's off, you will have made a truly wonderful breakthrough and mastered a very difficult game mechanic which will surely make for a great game. I am, however, apprehensive, since (again) I have never seen this done before, and you will need to have wonderful options much more intruiging than any a Civilizations franchise has ever shown to light, and keep these options halfway balanced from early game through end game. How I wish you to succeed here, if even at the cost of everything else! This would truly be an answer to the greatest constraint: constant polyvalent player choices!

 

Hm, I agree with this concern, as well.

Maintenance in 4x games represents real issues (armies cost, services cost and so on): having to face them is an interesting strategic element; you shouldn't build more things than you're able to handle. It's also interesting in that you have to figure out different paces for different cities, know when it's time to take a break, know if a city "spends too much" but can be covered by the richer ones, and so on. No maintenance means it's always just a frantic rush to build and build and build, and another layer of strategy concerning city development goes away (together with workable tiles).

So I guess this is another baffling decision for me... one of the MANY that have come with this game, at this point.

I still hope the mix with the good stuff will work, though.

 

14 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7 8  Last